Curse

Zuranthium · Sep 09, 2007, 02:30 AM // 02:30

IMO, Ward vs. Melee has always been overpowered. Its power wasn't fully actualized before Nightfall (except in that dumb 3 Elem/2 Mes spike build) because GoLE wasn't around.

99% of all teams out there that aren't NR/Tranq or Hexes bring Ward Melee. Clearly, something ain't right.

I think it should cost 15 energy.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Actually, it is a pretty good solution to me. At least in the case of hex builds which I believe are pretty unanimously disliked by players that want more than just easy ladder farming.

As always, though, there are ways you can improve the situation rather than trashing it or ignoring it. Hexes are a standard game mechanic and they can be interesting. More hexes should follow the model Diversion has...shorter duration, bigger effect. Blurred Vision and Reckless Haste should have a 75% miss chance but an even shorter duration, for example.

~Z

Riotgear · Sep 09, 2007, 06:12 AM // 06:12

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killing skills that you dont like is never a solution

It's more of a solution than trying to ensure that poorly-designed garbage skills stay usable.

Mysterial · Sep 09, 2007, 06:45 AM // 06:45

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Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Hp inscripts increasing the life totals on the game is another reason spike is a must now. Its very difficult to pressure under these conditions at 500-525 life pre-NF. I very rarely see a pressure kill with any monks around. Increasing the HP totals while adding more def skills and buffing old def skills at the same was not a very smart move. It forces 1 type of play style on every build. Spike or nothing.

+Health equipment discourages spike, not encourages it. Successful pressure doesn't give a damn whether you have 500 maximum health or 5,000 - your monks are at zero energy and the red bars aren't going up so you will die eventually one way or the other.

The real problem is the power creep. The offensive power forced the defensive. If they nerfed the major defensive skills in use tomorrow, you wouldn't see some glorious return of pressure builds - you'd see overpowered physical spikes tear through everything like sandpaper without the equally insane defensive options holding them back.

Thomas.knbk · Sep 09, 2007, 08:14 AM // 08:14

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

As always, though, there are ways you can improve the situation rather than trashing it or ignoring it.

Killing bad skills is improving the situation. The less stupid skills the better. If you still have a dream to one day make every skill in the game playable and balanced be my guest. It's not going to happen.

Zuranthium · Sep 09, 2007, 01:16 PM // 13:16

You're so President Bush. Marley would be ashamed.

To "kill" a skill they have to go in and take the time and change the numbers anyway. So, instead of changing the numbers such that the skill is dead, you should change it so that it can have a purpose without being problematic. I haven't heard an argument yet as to why Hexes could never, ever be balanced no matter what is done to them.

~Z

moriz · Sep 09, 2007, 02:02 PM // 14:02

hexes would never be balanced, because it is too easy to overload any reasonable counters against them by running more hexes. sure, you can buff the counters, but it will just promote the "rock paper scissors" gameplay again: if you bring the counters against a team with loads of hexes, you win. if you bring those counters against a team without loads of hexes, you just got a few useless skills on your skillbar, and you lose.

therefore, it is much easier to nerf hexes into the ground. specifically nerfing their energy cost and duration, so hexes can be used as active shutdown instead of passive "layer it on and forget".

Rapture · Sep 09, 2007, 02:21 PM // 14:21

you can not balance hexes in the all situations of uncovered, one cover and stacked.

you can not balance hexes against both removal and lasting their duration.

few hex effects can ever be balanced for both use singuarly in a balance build and piled on in a hex build, thanks to the cover/bury mechanic. this is why short duration/large effect is seemingly the only way to go, as these hexes are not balanced around removal.

something like faintheart (if viable) will always be overpowered going duration and gimp being removed, something like diversion doesnt have the same sort of swing.

in short: nerf duration hexes into the ground so we can all go home please.

Thomas.knbk · Sep 09, 2007, 10:54 PM // 22:54

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

You're so President Bush. Marley would be ashamed.

To "kill" a skill they have to go in and take the time and change the numbers anyway. So, instead of changing the numbers such that the skill is dead, you should change it so that it can have a purpose without being problematic. I haven't heard an argument yet as to why Hexes could never, ever be balanced no matter what is done to them.

~Z

Don't even begin to compare me to President Bush. The situations are so different it's better not to even try. For a start, you're comparing pieces of code in an online game to actual people. I'm not going to give my opinion on Bush or the war on terror or anything like that in a guild wars forum, because it's pretty irrelevant.

Yes, to kill a skill they have to change the numbers. To turn it into a viable not-overpowered alternative they have to change the numbers AND think of that viable alternative. It's like saying 'to score an F on a test you have to write something down anyway, so why not just fill in the correct answers'. In a perfect world, Izzy would be changing every overpowered skill to something-not-overpowered-yet-viable, but a lot of times the concept of a skill is so bad, it's not worth the effort.

Unfortunately, just about every duration hex falls in that category. Including price and spirit of failure.

When that's the case, you can try to totally rework the skill, or you can accept that it's a bad concept and let it die. Then there's one stupid skill less to worry about and you can focus on other things. The task of a game balancer is in the first place to adress the problems. If some guild stormed up to the top 20 using some retarded spike build (something with 5 paragons or something like that), and at the same time nobody uses flare because it totally sucks, the paragons have a higher priority. Making unplayable skills playable is a luxury you can afford if all the actual problems guild wars has are adressed first. Nothing more.

If you want an argument why (duration) hexes can never be balanced, look at the past months. I've never, never seen hexes in a build without that build including overload. Overload is by definition bad because it encourages r/p/s.

edit: read rapture's post.

Mysterial · Sep 09, 2007, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Well, technically, it's not that they can't be balanced, but rather that to do so would require such a large amount of resources that we can be pretty confident Arenanet won't do it. Given that, they should be nerfed into the ground because that's a better alternative than just leaving them to be abused.

It's nice to have a discussion about how Guild Wars would be in a perfect world but most of us prefer to focus on changes that might actually happen.

Zuranthium · Sep 09, 2007, 11:23 PM // 23:23

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Originally Posted by moriz

therefore, it is much easier to nerf hexes into the ground. specifically nerfing their energy cost and duration, so hexes can be used as active shutdown instead of passive "layer it on and forget".

That's not nerfing them into the ground; it is a functionality change. Blurred Vision and Reckless Haste have started going towards the "less duration, more effect" kind of model and that evolution should keep going. As I said, give them an even shorter duration but with a 75% miss chance. Para Bond should be changed to a 3/4 cast with a shorter duration (10 seconds) and cause health loss (when it ends) instead of degen. Now Price of Failure/Faint/whatever would demand more activity on the part of the Necro if they want to keep the hexes covered and it would cause a greater strain on their energy too.

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Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Don't even begin to compare me to President Bush. The situations are so different it's better not to even try.

Oh please, you know it was a joke.

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Originally Posted by Mysterial

Well, technically, it's not that they can't be balanced, but rather that to do so would require such a large amount of resources that we can be pretty confident Arenanet won't do it. Given that, they should be nerfed into the ground because that's a better alternative than just leaving them to be abused.

It's nice to have a discussion about how Guild Wars would be in a perfect world but most of us prefer to focus on changes that might actually happen.

You either care about GW enough to retain and add diversity to the gameplay and find good solutions to problems or you don't care enough and simply ignore/trash things. If the former doesn't happen people will just move on to different games that have learned from GW's mistakes within the next year. And although it may be realistic to think "Arenanet won't do it", change doesn't happen by remaining silent. The entire point of us posting here at this very second is to share opinions/information and give feedback to the people who control the game.

~Z

Riotgear · Sep 10, 2007, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Personally, I've always thought that long-duration hexes are OK as a concept, just that the drawbacks and effects have been overboard, and p-bond has been making them way too sticky.

Conceptually speaking, it does seem balanced to be able to attempt overloading a target with hexes IF there's reasonable risk that they're going to get mass-dumped and set you back a long way, and you REALLY need a true "overload" to gimp a target.

As it was, there wasn't reasonable risk: Cast p-bond on them, and then they get to use one of the several horribly multiple hex removal skills. There wasn't much setback: Faint had an 8-second recharge. And it didn't really need true overload: One Faint or Reckless was enough to devastate a melee by itself, one Persistence-amped Migraine was enough to screw a monk over bad.

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or you don't care enough and simply ignore/trash things.

Some skills are conceptually beyond redemption (i.e. Discord), and if they are salvageable, then it needs to get nerfed out of its overpowered state first. Then comes the question of how to do that: Give it the kind of pathetic micronerfs that leave things overpowered for several major balance updates in a row, and piss players off because the problem hasn't been fixed, or bludgeon it with the nerfbat to get rid of it, and then nudge it back up until it becomes viable again.

Regardless of how good the concept is, I don't think anyone is lamenting the loss of Avatar of Grenth or Ether Renewal for example, and I don't think anyone would lament the loss of Shadow Prison, Avatar of Melandru, or Rampage as One if they got deleted from the game. Actually that's a lie, Izzy likes Melandru.

twicky_kid · Sep 10, 2007, 02:59 AM // 02:59

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Originally Posted by Mysterial

+Health equipment discourages spike, not encourages it. Successful pressure doesn't give a damn whether you have 500 maximum health or 5,000 - your monks are at zero energy and the red bars aren't going up so you will die eventually one way or the other.

Partly true. Life buffs do discourage spikes but this isn't an instant buff its passive so everyone will prepare to unload enough dmg in the spike to kill you. Unlike Endure pain type of HP buff that puts the life total over what the spike is prepared to dish out.

What the life increase does do is decrease the effectiveness of degen and melee auto attacks. The added life totals gives the monks more time to react and more time for LoD to reverse all the degen dmg. Passive HP hurts pressure more than spikes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

The real problem is the power creep. The offensive power forced the defensive. If they nerfed the major defensive skills in use tomorrow, you wouldn't see some glorious return of pressure builds - you'd see overpowered physical spikes tear through everything like sandpaper without the equally insane defensive options holding them back.

The only thing that has really changed in physical dmg is paragons and dervishes. Wars bars really haven't changed since prophocies. Paragon's Aggresive Refrain is what pushes them over the edge. Wearing Strike for dervishes.

Everyone complained about Grenth dervish and RoA till they were nerfed out of the game. We all called them "too easy to use" skills. They promoted pressure builds in the end. Before that it was Euro spike. Complained more and it got nerfed out of meta.

Now we have 321 spike builds which again are seen as "god if you can't hit a button on 1 you're an idiot." So either playstyle you pick both are "supposedly" easy to play. At least pressure if fun while spike is boring as hell. I love being on the edge not knowing if that person is going to die or if you'll be able to heal in time. Give me proph and season 2 pressure any day over the current meta.

*lemming* · Sep 10, 2007, 07:51 AM // 07:51

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Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Partly true. Life buffs do discourage spikes but this isn't an instant buff its passive so everyone will prepare to unload enough dmg in the spike to kill you. Unlike Endure pain type of HP buff that puts the life total over what the spike is prepared to dish out.

Find me a spike that would do 5000 damage.

Zuranthium · Sep 10, 2007, 03:45 PM // 15:45

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Originally Posted by Riotgear

Some skills are conceptually beyond redemption (i.e. Discord), and if they are salvageable, then it needs to get nerfed out of its overpowered state first. Then comes the question of how to do that: Give it the kind of pathetic micronerfs that leave things overpowered for several major balance updates in a row, and piss players off because the problem hasn't been fixed, or bludgeon it with the nerfbat to get rid of it, and then nudge it back up until it becomes viable again.

Yes and that's the thing...the actual mechanic of some skills needs to be changed. Discord, Grenth, Ether Renewal, etc. could have been changed instead of trampled. But for some reason ANET doesn't trust itself to make changes like that, even though the players themselves almost always suggest alternatives that could be put into the game immediately and would probably work. There were several good thoughts going around about how to alter Grenth back when it was OP, but instead they just killed the duration. That's pretty lazy and ignorant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I don't think anyone would lament the loss of Shadow Prison, Avatar of Melandru, or Rampage as One if they got deleted from the game. Actually that's a lie, Izzy likes Melandru.

No, I think plenty of people like those skills. Especially with SP because it promotes split builds more, which is a good thing. The bar itself may allow really bad players to do something pretty good but it takes skill and awareness to play the character to its fullest.

~Z

Yue · Sep 10, 2007, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Shadow prison promotes stupid splitting, which doesn't really accomplish anything. Shadow stepping has always been splitting for scrubs.

Tab · Sep 10, 2007, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Aura of Displacement is far better than Shadow Prison if you want a split shadowstep.

Vanquisher · Sep 10, 2007, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Unfortunately it doesn't allow for the retardedly overpowered Assassin spike.

Funny that they nerfed GPS so as to hurt such instantly high damage combinations, and then allow even more potent ones to come along.

Mind you, Rampage as One, Air of Enchantments, etc...

twicky_kid · Sep 10, 2007, 05:50 PM // 17:50

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Originally Posted by tehlemming

Find me a spike that would do 5000 damage.

That's just trolling and not even on point. The real point is the spikes are killing people with 600+ hp. Pressure on the other hand is not. What's the reason? LoD and hp buffs.

Post something worth reading plz.

Neo-LD · Sep 10, 2007, 09:54 PM // 21:54

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Originally Posted by twicky_kid

spikes are killing people with 600+ hp. Pressure on the other hand is not. What's the reason? LoD and hp buffs.

*Obnoxious buzzer sounds*

Wrong. The correct answer?

Double Aegis + Defensive Anthem + Blinding Surge + Ward Against Melee + Watch Yourself + Shields Up + Shield of Deflection + Light of Delieverance + Blurred Vision + ~4 hard targets.

All in one build.

*lemming* · Sep 10, 2007, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

That's just trolling and not even on point. The real point is the spikes are killing people with 600+ hp. Pressure on the other hand is not. What's the reason? LoD and hp buffs.

Post something worth reading plz.

If your party is taking damage faster than you can heal it, isn't that the definition of being pressured out? How does "having more time to lod" have anything to do with it?

Spikes on the other hand depend a lot more on HP count, since if you aren't packing enough damage to get kills with nonperfect spikes, nothing else really matters. A lethal spike can run monks out of energy by forcing prots, but if an unprotted one isn't enough to kill, then there's no way you're going to get anything done. Dunno why you have any other conception.